237: Hvordan lykkes med strategisk HR med Rachel Wilson Rugelsjøen

Hva skal til for at HR blir en reell strategisk partner og ikke bare en operativ funksjon?

I denne episoden har vi besøk av Rachel Wilson Rugelsjøen, spesialist på strategisk HR og lederutvikling. Hun utfordrer en av de største misforståelsene i HR-faget: at strategisk og operativ HR er to forskjellige ting.

For hva om nøkkelen ikke handler om å gjøre noe annet, men om hvordan du tenker rundt det du allerede gjør?

Rachel beskriver strategisk HR på en enkel, men kraftfull måte:
Det handler om å levere virksomhetens strategi gjennom mennesker.

Da blir det operative arbeidet ikke noe du må “komme deg bort fra”, men selve fundamentet for å lykkes.

I episoden snakker vi blant annet om:

•  hva strategisk HR faktisk betyr i praksis
•  hvorfor det operative er en forutsetning – ikke en motsetning
•  hvordan du kan jobbe mer strategisk uten å gjøre en helt annen jobb
•  hvorfor HR må slutte å “fikse” og heller utvikle ledere
•  hva som skal til for å bygge reell innflytelse i organisasjonen

Dette er en episode for deg som ønsker å løfte blikket i HR-rollen, uten å miste fotfeste i hverdagen.

🎧 Episoden er spilt inn på engelsk, men innsikten er like relevant.

Rachel er kjent for sine innsiktsfulle innlegg om HR på LinkedIn. Les mer her.
Vil du vite mer om Rachel? Les mer på LevelUp HR 

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Om dagens gjest:

Rachel Wilson Rugelsjøen is a dual British and Norwegian citizen and founder of LevelUp HR, a consultancy specialising in strategic HR and leadership development. She is a senior HR leader with over 20 years of international experience across global organisations including Cognizant, Hewlett Packard, Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Barclays Capital, and Norges Bank Investment Management.
Rachel is passionate about helping organisations deliver results through people — building high-performing teams, strengthening HR functions, and supporting leaders to turn strategy into reality.
With a background in Psychology, Human Resource Management, and Employment Law, and as a Chartered member of the CIPD, Rachel brings both depth and practical experience. She has worked across all levels of organisations, supporting leaders and teams through growth, transformation, and change with a particular focus on talent strategy, leadership development, organisational design, and culture.

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Transcript

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HR-podden er gitt til deg av Leonda. Leonda tilbyr et raust og inkluderende kompetansefellesskap for deg som jobber med HR, kompetanse eller lederutvikling i en virksomhet. Les mer om oss på leonda.no

Velkommen til HR-podden! Mitt navn er Anne Lise Heide. Jeg jobber som lederutvikler, foredragsholder og coach, og jeg har et veldig stort hjerte for HR-faget. Jeg leder digitale og fysiske kompetansenettverk i Leonda, og i godt selskap med spennende gjester byr jeg på faglig påfyll og aktuelle HR-tips hver uke.

Velkommen til ukens episode av HR-podden, og til denne merde-episoden, der Anne Lise og Rachel Wilson Rugelsjøen skal få lov å snakke om HR-faget og alt det som vi brenner for. For Rachel, hun er en god connection på LinkedIn. Hun er en av de som skriver mye klokt og innsiktsfullt om HR-faget. Og jeg har rett og slett falt litt for alt det som Rachel deler, og hatt et par digitale kaffekopper med henne tidligere, bare for å nerde sammen og snakke om HR. Og nå var det bare på høy tid å møtes her på HR-podden for å fortsette samtalen. Vi skal snakke om strategisk HR, vi skal snakke om hvem som tar vare på HR, vi skal snakke om noen av de hotteste innleggene som Rachel har hatt på LinkedIn, men ikke minst skal vi snakke om hvordan du kan lykkes med strategisk HR.

og hva som eventuelt er disse her snubletrådene som kommer litt i veien. Det blir en litt annerledes episode. Jeg var litt spent på hvordan dette skulle gå, for at Rachel, hun er jo native British, så hun hadde jo en... for å snakke engelsk i denne episoden. Og jeg skal ærlig innrømme at jeg har en veldig sterk preferanse for å snakke norsk. Jeg kjenner at jeg snubler litt i ordene når jeg må bytte til engelsk. Så jeg tenkte at dette her, det kommer til å bli som alle de samtalene vi hadde på teamet i gamle dager, der vi snakket engelsk og norsk og svensk om hverandre. Men så tok jeg meg litt i det, og tenkte at hva blir best for deg som lytter?

Jeg tenkte at hvis jeg klarer å snu om til engelsk, og lar Rachel snakke 90% av tiden, så blir kanskje det den beste lypte opplevelsen. Så jeg prøvde meg på det, kastet meg ut i det, så ble det litt norsk og engelsk likevel. Du får bare bli med oss og se hvordan det blir. Men uansett... Du kan bare glede deg, for dette er en så kompetent dame som kan sykt mye om hårfaget, og har utrolig mange gode tips til deg som jobber med hår. Så varmt velkommen til HR-podden Rachel. 

Thank you so much, Annalisa. Okay, I really look forward to this. But just let's start with getting to know you better. What would you like to tell about yourself? And what should I tell you?

First of all, I'm really looking forward to this as well. And I think also discussing with someone that's as passionate about the HR field as I am as well and kind of speak some of the same language around the strategic piece. So I think that's the essence of. what I do and what I stand for. Well, language will be the trouble here. Language might be an issue. We talk HR. Both of us talk HR. We talk HR. Yeah. We do. Yeah, what would I like people to know? I'm typically speaking Norwegian, and so I'm usually explaining why I'm called Rachel Wilson-Rugelsjön. Mm-hmm. But in this instance, we've decided to speak English, but usually I'm explaining that I'm a Brit.

I have lived and worked in Norway for a long time, best part of 15 years, so kind of over half of my professional career. I'm actually a Norwegian citizen as well, so I... Have the pink passport by now. And I run a company called Level Up HR after spending 20 years plus in corporate HR. So in large Fortune 500 companies, as a HR business partner. So that's sort of the... Um, the field or the training that I've had. So business partnering and that kind of commercial side of HR has been. how I've been brought up, if you like, in the typical Dave Ulrich model with the Centres of Excellence, the shared service model. and the HR business partners who are sort of the face of HR and responsible for the end-to-end delivery of all things people.

So that's been my professional training, specifically before I moved here to Norway about sort of 15 years ago. So I'm a hybrid. I'm a psychologist by training. I've done leadership and HR management as a master's and also a postgraduate in employment law. So I'm a real, what should I say, a mix, a hybrid. HR business partner and leader and now consultant helping organizations, leaders, HR directors to level up. Okay. Perfect. Nice. So when you hear the term strategic HR, what does that mean to you? Um... It's... I mean, you can talk at length about delivering the business strategy through... Organizational development through people, through culture. And I think there's a lot of mystery and a lot of...

um confusion perhaps about um strategic HR I think there's this sort of mindset that it's kind of cooler or sexier or more critical and operational HR isn't important. And I think that's not the case. If we just simplify it to its, you know... individual line item. It's just about delivering the business strategy. What is your business, your organization trying to achieve in the world? And therefore, how do you do that via people? So strategic HR is nothing more than... achieving and delivering the strategy through people. And typically, people are behind most organizations, whether it's a product that's delivered or a... Service, whether it's funds that are invested and managed, it's human beings that are involved somewhere along the line. So, if you were to explain the operational part of HR, how would you...

Explain or describe. So. I would say, I mean, there's many operational elements that are part of strategic delivery of HR and strategic thinking. You tend to think of payroll as sort of at the heart of operational HR. And whilst I would always kind of work with and enable leaders and HR directors to work more in this strategic space, because that's where I believe the most value. is to be had. That's the way you're going to help the company enable and drive the strategy and create results. Amen. But. The CEO doesn't want to talk to you at length about challenges in his leadership team or challenges in client delivery if payroll is broken and people aren't getting paid or there are errors.

So, the operational piece is almost the building blocks at the heart of an organization that has to be in place and it has to work. Um. So there's this sort of misconception, I think, that one is better than the other. But you really can't have a strategic piece unless you've got the operational building blocks in place and in place properly in terms of capabilities, systems and technology to enable them. and that they're properly budgeted for and resourced. Because how I see it, there's not like always a clear defined line between what is strategic and operational. It's kind of melting into each other. in a way, or no? Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It's a really good point, Anne Lise, and you've got me thinking because... Um. Not all HR.

roles, functions, departments are created equal. And what I mean by that is. Um. They look different in different countries, different industries, different organizations within different teams. You know, a different leadership team will. require or set things up so that HR looks different. Hmm. And I think more commonly in my experience here in Norway versus internationally in the UK and the US is that... There are more things mixed in here just by the very nature of our... our country, our culture, our workforce. It's a smaller nation, right? So you tend to have... smaller organizations and therefore much smaller HR teams than the HR teams I've sort of grown up in when I was in London in investment banking, HR. Some of the teams or the typical departments I was part of could be 100 and 150 HR professionals.

Uh, with. you know, deep expertise in compensation and benefits and employment law and executive coaching and leadership and development, you know, just learning and training. Um. data and analytics. So, you have all those fog partial knit. And the HR business partner's job is to be the sort of conductor, almost like in an orchestra, bringing together all those deep specialisms and you're delivering that to... your client group, if you like. So, either a function or a country or an organization, in fact, pulling on all of those experts. And then you typically have a shared service center where a lot of the operational HR sits to enable the HR business partners and the talent specialists, if you like, to deliver everything in a seamless way, but across the whole of the people function.

Right. And obviously, if you're an HR business partner, then you need to balance between the operational and the strategic stuff. 

I think you do. You need to balance, but you also need to know where to go. You need to really be good at leveraging either systems and processes or your experts and teams that you work with to get the operational piece done. And I think in Norway, because we tend, you know, not that we don't wear several different hats in other countries with slightly larger populations and therefore workforces, but you need to switch between the two and you need to take on and off multiple different hats. But I still believe that. Um. regardless of that. We need to. move into the strategic space much more if we want to have the desired effect.

And if we want to demonstrate to the business our value and we want to indeed create results. And my mantra in, I think, 20 years has been delivering results through people that thrive in HR. That's what I believe HR is about. And, you know, that's what is the strategy designed to execute. in terms of results. And then when I say people, I mean leaders, I mean teams, I mean employees, stakeholders. that they will do the best. work they can when they're thriving. Hmm. And that's not changed through 20, 25 years of HR. And I think that probably won't change because that's what I believe. HR is there to do. Okay, great. So if you have an HR department, what would characterize this HR department that truly deliver value to the organization?

How can you see that this is an HR department that... Makes a difference. Um. never losing that line of sight to the strategy. Hmm. keeping everything tied to. um What is the company there to do? What's its purpose? What's its mission? What is it? you know, signed off. to with the board around the results the strategy that they're driving towards um You know, there are... Many. HR directors, HR professionals, talented HR professionals out there who... Have really kind of all of their careers worked towards, you know, how can I be this strategic? How can I be the strategic partner? And how can I be seen and known for that? And I think... HR professionals, particularly CPO’s, CHRO’s, heads of HR, they have to be first and foremost business leaders.

first business professionals first with the people discipline the people expertise as their domain. But they're leaders first with expertise in people. Hmm. That's great. That's clarifying, really. But why do you think that some HR leaders become like these strategic partners for the business while others remain more admins? administrative support functions yeah and in fact i have um i have a leveling up to strategic HR masterclass and I’ve developed a model which is called the core seven core pillars of strategic HR. So perhaps I'll share them with you and you can link them for your listeners to see if... um you know well, both it's helpful to them, but also to help clarify. each of the seven arrows that i believe are essential because i think there's We know we need to be strategic, but I think sometimes we need help to...

Translate that into the doing of the strategic HR, right? Great. So the seven principles cover shaping strategic and operational clarity. They cover aligning workforce goals to people. Um. They touch on cultures, developing winning cultures, and we're not solely responsible for culture, just to make that really clear. Um, it's. Connectivity, facilitating connectivity and collaboration across the organization. Often in HR we have sort of a bird's eye view. of the organization. So, we have a unique opportunity to really kind of foster and drive that collaboration, which often is lacking. We often hear siloed thinking, siloed decision making. Uh, and. I think most of the organizations I work with and have worked with. Then it's enabling team performance. I do a lot of work with high performing teams, driving growth and adaptability, and then not least driving successful leadership and enabling leaders.

So, one of the things that I think we're both passionate about is. How can we make? leaders be the best leader they can be. So that all lies, I think, within the strategic HR remit. But to answer your question, why... don't HR professionals become strategic? Yeah. I think... many of us or many of them are waiting to be asked, you know, it's that sort of, what's the word, the infamous seat at the table, you know, oftentimes you hear. HR should have a seat at the table. Um. And I think many HR directors spend years trying to get there. But you're not going to be asked. You're not going to be invited to take a seat at that strategic table. Strategy isn't a seat that you're given. In my opinion, it's a position you establish.

You effectively take that seat by demonstrating your knowledge. of the business and how what you work with enables and drives that. And a leadership team, they won't bring HR into the conversation. until their perspective improves the quality and the speed of decision-making. Um, And so I think we can do that. And sometimes it just takes more confidence. Sometimes it takes more speaking the language of the business in financial terms. you know, asking better questions. and having the confidence maybe to take that space. And, you know, back to my earlier point, not all HR roles and functions are quite created equal. Sometimes that can depend on the organization. Sometimes there's a huge amount of education needed to get to that point because...

based on where they are in their growth cycle, what kind of HR professionals or how they've set up HR previously, all dictate whether you have a CEO or a leadership team that understands, sees the value. and we'll enable that. just from their position today, or whether you have a huge amount of... advocating and educating to do before you get there. So, I always say to HR professionals that I, you know, work with or coach. Also pick carefully your organization. Look at the structure. Understand where it sits in the organization. If you're a CPO, are you reporting to the CEO or the CFO? has a fundamental impact on your ability to operate from the right seat as a starting point. Your job will be more of an uphill battle if you're not positioned correctly in the organizational.

So, there are actually some questions you should ask before you go on and take an HR business partner job or HR manager role or CHRO role for that. You know, and I caveat that with... You know, and I've, I know we'll get onto this. You and I both write a lot on LinkedIn and I, you know, there are, there are so many different. scenarios out there. in a small company where HR has to do, you know, multiple different roles, perhaps more falls under the banner of HR. So, this is, I don't want to be too black and white. This is very nuanced because, you know, HR professionals are sitting in different roles. But, you know, when we're talking about, you know, the typical larger... talentbedrift, som man sier på norsk.

choose carefully, do due diligence if you're moving into a role, interview them. and dig deep as much as I'll be interviewing you. But still, I think that there is something about the organization, the culture, the structure, but there is also something about your own mindset. Yeah. And think about, you know, David Ulrich and his HR competency model and this credible activist as a very important competency for HR people. You don't sit and wait to be asked. No. You need to be that activist. I think what Ulrich is saying is this, you know, you use the term activist. I like to think of it more as an influencer. Um, an internal. influencer in the organization. And I think one of the capabilities that lies at the heart of being a successful strategic CPO is relationship skills, relationship building.

That relationship with the CEO. is your most important relationship, is absolutely critical for your success. As with the rest of the leadership team, the CEO and the C... FO and the CPO, and I think also now the CTO. I think that's the quad that really has to work successfully. So invest in that relationship. You know, there are other, I would say, critical skills and competencies that... to characterize the more successful CPOs that I've worked with. That's definitely one of them, but it's not the sole one. Um, And it's, and you mentioned it, you know, daring to speak up, you know, having the confidence to challenge. And, you know, within that relationship piece is care, you know, care about what they care about. Hmm.

care about what they're, you know, what they're focusing on, what keeps them up at night, what is it that they are. spending their, you know, day on, week on, what's top of mind for them. You need to know that every Monday morning. So, it's about, well, the relationship, but also communication skills, like listening, truly genuine listening. Like you said, care. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Listening. and a lot more listening and observing. You know, we talked about... Strategic HR, we could talk for... hours on you know strategic on what it really means and what almost the recipe is, right? Um, And the big difference between... operational and strategic HR is activity versus influence. and judgment so it's you know less busy work less doing it's less jumping into action it's that key word that you said listening observing and then going away and thinking and planning and talking to your team and doing the R&D. And what I see time and time again across the board, across countries and industries is this. Execution. you know, drive this jumping straight to execution. And if you want to be known and have that strategic influence. Um. ask more questions, take that time, allow and educate the business that you need this research phase. It's not like jump how high because then you'll just be known for fixing problems, being the fixer, being the operational, really strong, get things done. But you will remain in that position, and you won't be. Yeah, invited to the table before decisions are made. You'll be reacting to the decisions and just implementing. I think that's kind of, that's part of the mindset shift I was talking about.

Because many of the HR people I know are really helpful, really supportive, and they are really good at fixing things. you are kind of stuck in that position because there will always be new things to fix, new powers to take down. For sure. Yeah, firefighting and fixing. And maybe people are drawn to the profession because there is this... this helpful, you know, service element to it. But don't over deliver on the fixing. If you want to be known for impact, value, influence. So, there's something about setting healthy boundaries. But there is also the education part, which you talked about earlier, like educate the business on what is the HR role? What is the leadership role? How do we function well together? Exactly. Exactly. Mindset, I think, is a big thing.

uh that's probably an episode all of his own right it's such a I think you know I think you've touched on something that's really important um Some of it I think you can train and you can consciously support people around. Some of it I think comes from experience. and learning that, you know, a manager coming to your desk constantly doing drive-bys because it's just a small people issue and can't we just solve this on the way to a meeting. It's finding ways to say, yes, really, you know, happy to help you. Look forward to discussing it and digging into the details with you. Can we set off some time? Can you put some time in my diary? I'm just working on something else right now.

You don't need to jump out of your chair and hop into a room and have that conversation on the fly. You're already putting yourself in. Hmm. Um, a very weak position. You know, you're not setting yourself up for success because you've given yourself no time to actually... listen to the issues, ask the good questions, think about different courses of action. And, you know, we also need to be asking ourselves often when it comes to people's scenarios, let's say, you know, what was the precedent? What have we done? What have we seen like this before? Um, And what will be the downstream consequences if we do this or if we say this or if we go in this direction? what then happens next and next and next and what will be the knock-on effect in that country or that department or...

on this thing. 18 months from now. These aren't. always conversations that you want to be having on the fly. Actually, I think we are into my next question already, because I was going to ask you about why do some HR functions fail to live up to its strategic mandate? And I think it has to do with, you know, both education, well, educating the organization, but also your own mindset. But what are your thoughts on this subject? Um. It's nuanced, right? And we've covered many of the elements, you know, education. the organizational design, which seat they're operating from. Um. there. experience let's say confidence ability to build those relationships and influence demonstrate results um i think you know the business partner roles that i held when i was in uh kind of prior to moving to Norway but also in um My first role in here was at the Norwegian Oil Fund.

I think... Um. Bye. At their heart, they were business partner roles, HR leadership roles. One of the roles I held, actually, we called ourselves RM’s, so relationship managers. Oh. Which... you know was designed to articulate to the business and to us in HR that we you know we were the key account manager let's say. HR with our various departments so this is when I was in Bank of America Merrill Lynch so looking after various different functions and departments as a business partner but I was called a relationship manager interestingly enough but what I'm what I why I share that is because um We need to have that commercialism, that business acumen. We need to understand. And I think where... some HR departments fail is they're not speaking the language of the business.

You need that fundamental, you don't need to be a CFO, but you need that fundamental understanding of The P&L, you know, how does this business make its money and where does this business spend its money? You need to have a basic understanding of EBITDA and the balance sheet. Um, and then. How does your HR budget fit with that? What is the strategy trying to achieve and what will it take? So, You know, briefly back to what is strategic HR. I... Don't make a HR strategy. Don't make a people strategy. Your strategy is already set by the organization. What you're doing is you're setting. OKRs around that that deliver to those strategic pillars, if you like, via people, you know, however that looks. I think sometimes...

what we call an HR strategy is more like the tactics to support the organization really. Probably. Yeah. So it's more like a naming thing. A naming thing. But an important naming thing. You know, when you talk about communication earlier, it's how... It's really important for how HR articulates what it does for the organization and the value it brings. Hmm. Absolutely. Did we answer that question? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Yes. Because it's such a good question and it's such an important one. Anything else you want to add? Why they miss. Yeah, you know, and B, spend time with people. I mean, it goes back to relationships. I once spoke to an executive. You know, here in Norway, and I remember him saying to me, Oh, you know, you don't.

Talk like a HR professional. You don't say the same things that I'm used to talking to HR people about. And first I was almost offended on behalf of the profession and on behalf of his view of HR because it wasn't a particularly positive comment. And then he went on to say, well, when I asked them what they talk about and where they sit at lunchtime, they say they sit together and they talk about sick leave statistics. Um, That was his. painting a picture of the function for me and and you're not like that you focus elsewhere um So, you know, again, it's... be part of the business, understand what is a focus for people. You talked about Dave Ulrich and the activism piece and we kind of switched that over to influencing.

good ambassadors and good advocates for you and what you're doing in the organization. So you need to understand what they're trying to achieve. And then you also need to share how you're. helping the organization get there. Mm-hmm. Okay, so we are talking about you need to understand the business, you need to be out there, you need to talk to people, and there is a lot of things you need to do, but most... HR people I meet are overwhelmed. So if HR were to work truly such a strategic, what do you think we need to stop doing? Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because my initial thinking was, yeah, you need to stop doing stuff to enable you to focus on. a high value. and the strategic. Uh... work.

And again, I would always advise and always look. What did we commit to? So we have the company strategy, we have our objectives and key performance indicators, right? We have some kind of KPI’s or OKR’s. And they're signed off, they're committed to. So you can always go back to, is this contributing to those, you call them tactics, you know, these strategic objectives? Is the work I'm doing now, is it contributing? Is it part of one of those? Or is it? are nice to have or a side hustle or a sort of a... We don't want to be doing HR for HR's sake. No. There's always multiple things. And I think this is important, particularly here in Norway, where our team... are lean and we do multiple specialisms within those roles.

You know, I often talk about invisible HR work, often when HR is working really well. You're not hearing very much from them. because they're taking care of a lot of things and influencing a lot of things behind the scenes. Um. So we need to stop doing some of the busy work. And that's, you know, stopping the drive-by conversations, fixing things on the fly or... I'm just trying to think of some concrete examples. Yeah, you had a LinkedIn post on this, didn't you? Ah, yeah. I think March, it was actually now. in March, wasn't it? Yeah, I was going to check that. That's what you were thinking of. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things we need to stop doing. Then we're getting down to real, yeah, basics.

And I think, you know, and not to sort of... As I say, People have different HR roles and I think a lady did write to me and say, you know, well, if I need that job and that's part of... the role, then I don't have the luxury of not ordering the merch, negotiating the coffee agreement. refurbishing the office. And I think that's fine. Just know what you're going into and what kind of role. This is arguably I'd say it's it shouldn't be called HR. But, you know, that's a different conversation. Mm-hmm. But I do think if the business is expecting you to... do these multiple facilities management, office management, operational type jobs in addition to requiring you to be the advisor to the executive team and delivering.

substantial programs in an international environment. Um. You need to make clear. You know, something's got to give, right? You know, when you do your HR budget and you're contributing to the company OKR’s and tying your work to the strategy. Hmm. Where does that work come in? It's taking away from your ability to execute on that. So yeah, I was going to pull that up actually because it was kind of a funny one. It was one of these, I think it was one of my Monday morning. Let's keep it lighthearted. Okay. Kind of post, but of course, lots of... Um, um i guess validation people feeling like yeah there's a lot that we do that we're not getting yeah it's something you can recognize from a lot of organizations And there's nothing wrong about it because obviously in small organizations you will have all these hats, all these roles within HR and this kind of office manager role together with HR and HMS and HSE and everything.

But still, if you do too much of this, you will never be that strategic HR manager if that's what you aim for. Exactly. So it's something about being aware of what fills your role. And what should your role be in this organization? And have that discussion, really, with your boss, with the leadership team. Mm. For sure. And they were real, you know, they're real examples. I think, you know, for me, I've been very lucky in terms of the companies I've worked for. Um, you know, Fortune 500 companies are set up in a different way. They're larger, they have the infrastructure, they have facilities, departments, etc. But, you know, my first job here... the Norwegian oil fund there were things that i needed to do and learn to do which i i hadn't done before because someone had done it for me right so there's it's

and that wasn't wrong or spoilt i just had to learn a different environment different expectations and i think clarity on what that is and what success looks like um and how this will be measured in terms of my you know kpis my performance metrics etc um will that be part of it or is that additional? If I... Yeah, I think we need to... Organize the Christmas party and organize the Easter treasure hunt and do the office refit, buy the merchandise, you know, speak to... to the woman that waters the plants, et cetera, et cetera. I think there's a line, right? It's about healthy boundaries, but clear expectations. So I think there's something about setting clear expectations. And also there's the thing about evaluating what energizes you, what you like.

Some of these things are... Fun stuff. I don't want to do them. But you really need to see what is my role and what do I want to contribute with in the organization and what should not be a part of the role. Mm. Um, And for some HR professionals, it's fine, you know. Yeah. It really is. And they've been successful. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's not a prerequisite for success that you don't, you know, these jobs have to get done. You know, and I've been a chief of staff in a small kind of scale-up startup setting and been the one that's acquired the facilities management role. in addition the coffee uh of tala um and you know even been asked to bake boller and organize hot chocolate for a walk in Slottsparken but you know there's a way to um Make sure that gets done, but not assume it as part of your job description.

Okay, good. Okay, so where are we? That's true. Yeah, this is a question I get often. How can HR become better at making the value of HR work visible to the organization? Like making others see what you really contribute with. Yeah, yeah. And this is a really... Uh, key. aspect of that influencing piece. And in order to do that, you've got to prioritize those things that are... Um. going to contribute to making an impact, making a difference to the business and the strategy? And then how do you, once you've prioritized working on those, how do you then share? Yeah, I think it's the last part I'm asking about because I know people that do a lot of work that really makes an impact, but still they're...

They aren't valued or appreciated, or data work aren't seen. It's just like, you know, IT support. You won't see what IT is doing until things are not working. Exactly. Yeah. Um. I think there are two key things here. I think one is... you know, the topic on everyone's list, AI. So data and analytics, you need that. data-driven, evidence-based. information to both guide but also share impact. And then I think it goes back to influence and then that's relationships. So you need alignment with the business and the leadership's objectives, and you need clarity as to what your role is in helping achieve that. Um, And then I think on a very tactical, simple level, it's also creating forums, you know, and taking ownership of...

um creating those people hour or lunch and learns or very tangible um routines, kind of moments that matter to employees where... If they don't exist, ask why not. go ahead and create them and there's a lot of stuff we can do for free. But it's bringing people together and connecting the dots and creating those forums and those routines where you can share them. Mm-hmm. And then I think it's back the other way. So as a HR business partner, you are always at department meetings. So the business you support, serve, enable, partner with, you're at their departmental meetings. A leadership team meeting does not happen without their chief of staff, CPO or HR business partner. You have to be in the room.

And again, it goes back to you earn your place in the room by bringing, you know, tangible value by asking the right questions, you know. What will this structure do that you're proposing to speed of execution? What capability will we lose if we... make this decision or we exit here, what will that mean from a people's perspective? What behavior will this incentive scheme actually drive? Hmm. They're the questions to be asking. that earn your space in the room. what you're talking about when you're there. And then back to your point, listening and observing. What are they talking about? What's on the, you know, what's the hot topic? What's moving in the market? What challenges are they facing on an operational level? So how does this impact our people?

What do we need to be thinking about where it relates to our people? So oftentimes that data and analytics insight will help us to do that. We've got attrition turnover figures. Who are we losing? When? Why? At what stage of their career? How long have they been with us? Are they identified as top talent, critical roles, etc.? You need that insight to be able to then... Advice. Okay. So we are soon moving into another subject, which is really interesting for HR. But before that, if you were to give like three concrete pieces of advice to HR leaders that want to become more strategic, it's that they're not quite there yet. What would be your top three advice? Um... Be a business leader. Know the business. Understand the P&L. Understand.

our business. makes money, spends money. Mm-hmm. because you need to be tying. your impact and contribution to that. It's also the way you're going to secure budget for... what you need to deliver the strategy. Because if you are... without suitable fit-for-purpose technology platforms, for example. There are many, many companies, also large, shiny brands that are kind of held together with paper. string and glue because or HR or Excel and PowerPoint and not much more than that and HR are often the school markings barn you know the poor cousin who has to kind of make do yeah We're the function that... basically enables the organization's largest asset. and log largest cost on. Um, on the balance sheet, the employees, right?

So you have to be able to speak that financial and business language to secure the budget you need to actually... deliver what's expected of the HR department. So that would be number one. And then... Yeah, it's influence and relationships and listening and paying attention to, you know, there's a lot of focus on the employee experience, understand the employee life cycle, the employee journey. um and those moments that matter so you can focus on where the the frictions or the challenges are in that journey um And that's also how you build understanding of the business as well as a byproduct. But you also are able to get your message out there, your voice out there. Mm. You wanted a third? Yeah. I want to know what you, I'm wondering if you're aligned with this, whether you...

Uh... Whether you... see you know across your experience and all the organizations you work with if you see anything different through your lens. Nå slår jeg over til norsk hvis jeg skal reflektere. Ja, bare gjør det. Nei, jeg er helt med på det. Dette her med å forstå forretningen, forstå forretningsmodellen, forstå hva er de andre i ledergruppen opptatt av, det vil jo være kjern for meg også når jeg snakker om strategisk HR. Og så må jeg innrømme at det tok litt tid, for jeg skjønte at det var en greie, for jeg kommer jo fra lederroller selv. Så jeg har alltid vært en del av linja før jeg gikk til HR. Og da tenker du veldig naturlig på hvordan skal vi levere på det som kundene vil ha med de menneskene vi har på en best mulig måte.

jeg tenkte at det er kjernen i alt. Så for meg var det litt overraskelse å oppdage at ikke HR alltid tenkte på det. Ja, ok. Yeah. og du tok det for gitt at vi skulle ha hatt den type dybde eller forståelse i Ja, jeg har tatt det litt for gitt. Og så møter jo jeg veldig mange av de hårmenneskene som er ... langt fremme i skoene. Jeg møter folk i HR-nettverken, jeg møter folk som investerer i egen kompetanse, jeg møter HR-mennesker som virkelig forstår forretningen. Så for meg... så er det sånn at når man begynner å snakke om nye HR, og nå skal vi bli mer businessorientert. Hæ? Det har vi jo alltid vært. Men så er det ikke alle som har vært der, kanskje. No.

Nå snakker jeg med litt bort, så hvor var vi igjen, Rachel? You know, we've both had the privilege of working with very talented, experienced professionals. And maybe it's because, you know, the world has opened up with social media, with digitalization in terms of, you know, we're getting just much more stories. much more input across the world from different types of organization as well so we see just the variety of what's out there um i think you know what else have we got um you know it's also people dynamics so you talk about leadership right so understanding I think for me with you know the sort of psychology training that I have as well it's really understanding how people work together so understanding the leadership dynamics in the room.

understanding how informal power structures are working. And, you know, there's nothing sinister or mystical about it. It's just how humans interact and get things done, work with information, relate to each other, make decisions together or separately, really investing in. That side of things. So, you know, how to make a good team, a really great team. I mean, I see across the board so much untapped potential and it's kind of between the people within the teams. So it's in workflows, work structure, organizational design. And it's in people and how they work together or don't work together, collaboration. tapping into each other's talents, really understanding who is this person? How do they like to operate? What will make them more successful? There's a huge amount of untapped potential there. And I think that's a really key.

Value. that a HR, strategic HR professional can bring to an organization really. understanding that and then surfacing it to the leadership or the CEO. Hmm. Når du sier det, og nå kjører jeg norsk igjen, så tenker jeg at dette handler jo i veldig stor grad om hvordan du jobber godt sammen med lederne. For HR skal lage prosessene, strukturerne, utdanne lederne, og se verdiene i det, og tenke helhetlig på tvers av organisasjonen. Men de er helt avhengig av dette samspillet. Så jeg tror det ligger mye der hvordan vi får ledere til å ha det til å fungere godt sammen. Och så... Må jeg tilbake til det vi skal over i neste spørsmål som handler om grensesetting? For jeg tror at mange på HR får ikke gjort det strategiske arbeidet for det at de har ikke tid, de har ikke...

kapasitet, de er så kjørt. Og det er blitt et mønster der HR bare fikser ting. Og det å komme seg ut av det mønstret handler jo ikke bare om HR sitt mindset, men handler om at du blir nesten holdt litt fast i hvordan det har vært, hva man har blitt vant til. Så noen ganger er det nesten lettere å bytte jobb og begynne på noe annet sted. må man kanskje ta seg en coach eller få litt hjelp og støtte til å stoppe opp og kjenne, ok, hvordan skal jeg omorganisere min egen hverdag for å få til dette her? Og da begynner du å kjenne litt, hva får jeg energi av? Hva tapper meg for energi? Hvordan har jeg lyst til at min rolle skal være?

Hvordan ønsker jeg at min hverdag skal se ut om to år? Så det er noe med at dette er veldig mye selvledelse, og det handler om å ta noen valg først, og så begynne å jobbe seg mot de målene. drømmer om å få en superstrategisk HR-rolle. Noen er det fordi at man elsker å hjelpe mennesker, og stille opp, og bidra, og er sterke på empati og relasjoner. Så man må kjenne hva slags type HR-rolle passer for meg, og så finne den organisasjonen som er good fit. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, there are many... reminiscing or laughing about a HR professional that I work with. And she said to me, I don't even like people particularly. I like cats. And I thought it was just such a brilliant and the ironic thing, or perhaps the...

clarifying thing for me was that She was a really good, is a very good HR professional. You don't have to. And you shouldn't be. A people person? A people pleaser. A people pleaser, yeah. So your goal is not to make everybody happy. You're not the chief happiness officer. You're not responsible for the culture. I mean, I do struggle a bit with the title people and culture because I don't think culture is. the responsibility of a person. Culture is built by. It's a living organism. It's built by a set of people. Yes, it's... Very influenced by the tone at the top. Hmm. the top level of the organization, massive impact leadership, but it comes from all directions, every angle. Um. And not every HR professional wants to work with leadership teams and wants to be really close to a leadership group.

You know, and that's fine. But I think that's... a key part of the strategic role um for sure um but it's not and this is where we get to your boundary setting you know it's mindset it's boundary setting um Don't be the proxy manager. You know, I think oftentimes in our quest to help leaders. What do you mean by proxy manager? Don't. Take over a leader's role. Don't do the... Don't take on the difficult conversation for the leader because it's unpleasant for him or her. your role is to enable them, to guide them, to coach them, maybe even role play and help them write a script because it's a particularly challenging. that they don't look forward to. They're terrified of getting... There's a lot of risk in people scenarios.

And HR's job, you know, particularly... strategic level is to help manage that risk, de-escalate issues, mitigate risk, particularly at board and corporate level. But don't do it for them because you also disempower the leader. You make them a less capable leader by doing their job for them. Your role is not to manage people on their behalf, it's to help them be the best leader that they can be. Um. And that does come back to boundaries. And I think in people's quest to be valued and to demonstrate impact, we leap into execution and doing stuff, busy work. just getting stuff done, fixing issues. But then we're right back where we started around. But I want this strategic, you know, influencing. I want to be called in early and be part of the conversation so I can influence decisions.

before they've been taken. Mm. You won't get that if you don't. start requiring it and expecting it and operating in that way. We need to move on. It's great, but we need to move on. Because what I really want to get into before ending this is your LinkedIn post approximately three years ago. I think that was when I discovered you on LinkedIn. And you posted a very powerful message with the headline, HR looks after everyone, but there is no one to look after HR. And this post went viral, like with thousands of likes and hundreds of comments. What was this post really about? I'm just looking for it now because I know very well the one you're talking about. I wanted just to remind myself of it because, as you say, it is three years ago.

And the fun thing is it still gets comments and likes. It still gets kind of some traction and some outreach. Because as you say, it clearly hit a nerve. Mm-hmm. And I think at the time, so it was, we would. Maybe just coming out of COVID, could that be right? So I just started Level Up HR that year. So I'm in my fourth year now. And I think it was a moment of... It was kind of a moment of reflection and probably slight sentimentality for me when I wrote that post because... I was seeing... I was seeing a profession that was experiencing a lot of burnout, for sure. And the HR role had grown tremendously during the COVID years. You know, we'd become... crisis management experts, we'd become internal communications responsible.

We had taken on a lot of the emotional stress and experience of COVID, supporting leadership who were supporting. employees that were impacted. I was heading up HR for Cognizant at the time. Huge. enterprise tech digital consulting company. So 300,000 employees globally, a massive organization. So of course, Only 400 of us here in Norway and sort of a thousand across the Nordics, but managers. had, of course, people all around the world who were very exposed to, you know, inability to get food or access or medicine, vaccinations, etc. So they... Really? Had it gone through a lot, you know, the COVID was a... a people crisis wasn't it was a health and safety crisis versus the financial crisis that I experienced when I was working in investment banking so it was a crisis of a different nature so I think HR had sort of stepped up And, um...

you know, had pretty broad shoulders and taken on a lot of additional work during those years. But actually I was, and I didn't write this in the post, I was thinking back to... Um. One of my first roles in Merrill Lynch that was then bought by Bank of America during the financial crisis, we actually had a HR for HR. person. I think there was just one, maybe also a learning and development dedicated person. um Wonderful woman. You, Leah, still in touch with her today. She reported to the head of HR who was responsible for the whole of Europe, HR. And she worked on our... Career development, our promotions, she probably... sat with the the CPO and discussed you know compensation bonuses etc so she was the business partner for the HR function um and well so i didn't write that in the post because Also, what I started seeing as the comments kind of started to tick in, that this was a kind of an entirely new concept for many.

Um... But I just thought back to, gosh, how lucky we were. And of course, that was sadly one of the roles to be cut first during the restructure of the organization. There was a $50 billion hole in the company. So a huge amount of change during those years. and You know, I was thinking just how important that role... is and has become but I was also seeing that HR was kind of put back on the map i think in particular here in Norway there was a real kind of awakening for just how important the hr profession was um during those times because organizations saw Um. you know, the value of people in their businesses. And so it was it was fun. It got it was crazy.

It was and I remember I think I posted it around October and I was still answering comments in the Christmas holidays. So there were like seven and a half thousand, seven thousand six hundred and fifty nine sort of likes, loves, etc. 378 comments and 755 reposts. But what I was hearing was that... Across the world, people were feeling the same, experiencing the same. And I think just feeling validated, just feeling like, you know, people understood. Hmm. They were experiencing the same thing. um and um I also wrote sort of HR looks after everyone, but there's no one to look after HR. My sister is a clinical psychologist. She gets regular supervision to check in with her mental health. Because she deals so much... with so much trauma on a daily basis.

Don't get me wrong, HR really isn't that traumatic. You know, but then what I later found was that actually people were. like really experiencing a level of trauma, let's say. And of course, in the mental health profession, you get supervision, you debrief with... effectively someone that takes that coaching role. Um, And so there's really a place for that. So it almost kind of a whole HR, I think I almost coined the term, the hashtag term HR for HR. And a lot of specialists and kind of coaching businesses almost sprung up as an answer to that, as a help to that. You know, my sister had been working on some of this within the National Health Service in the UK. So we did end up teaming up and creating a preventing burnout in the workplace course.

for not just HR professionals. but also team. leaders and people managers because the interesting thing about the response to that post was also, and this is great, a lot of people outside the HR profession. having not realized what HR really did, having a new appreciation of the role. Mmm. That's great. But how do you see the situation today? Has anything improved or is it more or less the same? Such a good question. And I think I read some... numbers on this um recently i wonder if I’ve got them scribbled down um I'd like to say it's improved, but I don't think it has. And I think the numbers tell us, unfortunately, it hasn't. If not, it's got worse. I think it's maybe improved, Ref, what I was just talking about with the post.

I think there's a new level of awareness. I think that has also come through more channels to share. So like LinkedIn, for example, I mean, you've got a billion users on the platform. There's lots of, you know, great HR professionals and people professionals doing some really good stuff. So people have an increased level of awareness now, also through platforms like LinkedIn. So that's a positive thing. There's a deeper understanding. There's a greater awareness. But I think... Um. more people than ever before leaving the profession. I'm going to other roles. Yeah, so there's definitely more awareness, but the structural pressures on HR have actually increased in many organizations. So ref, what I was saying about post-pandemic. However, we also have AI, AI enablement. We have a multi-generational workforce.

We have hybrid and remote working that we've also had to factor in, make work in a way that still achieves the business strategy, right? So Gartner says that... 55% of HR leaders report feeling overwhelmed by the expanding scope of the role and many people are leaving the profession as a result, going to different roles or going into consulting or doing something entirely different. Um. In a way, also the risk picture has changed as well because we're also dealing with... Changing Employment Law. Mm-hmm. more stringent requirements, more need for governance, reporting, accountability from a risk perspective. That's altering the profession as well. And then, of course, we've got the geopolitical picture. We've got conflict, we've got war across the world, we've got people impacted in a very real way.

that's also having an influence on our profession for sure. Hmm. Yes. So, you know, it's a different mandate in a different world. And I think many other professions, right, we tend to get a lot of focus, I think, in... In the HR profession, there's a lot of scapegoating and HR being used as a punch bag oftentimes. Perhaps we've assumed responsibility or areas of responsibility that perhaps could sit somewhere else, actually. And then there's that lack of understanding and education piece that needs to happen. But I think the complexities of the modern world and doing business in the world today have increased and that will be impacting. many professions across the board, I think. Okay, so you're describing a situation where it can be tough to be in the HR role, be responsible and taking care of everyone else.

be your advice to HR really when you feel a bit of what you describe here How to handle or how to get help or... I mean, I think there's a lot out there in terms of coaches, sparring partners, HR for HR. Um. you know depends what your particular scenario is um and how far you believe the gap is from where you are right now versus where you would like to be. But I think... You know, HR is often described as a support function, but the reality is that organizations don't change, they don't grow, they don't perform. without the people systems behind them. A couple of my clients have called me a culture architect. And I think in that also, it's not just your role as the people professional, the HR director, the CPO to fix.

This is a whole organizational infrastructure that needs to be set up. to enable you know people uh stuff to work successfully this is not just on your shoulders um so don't try to solve it alone um there's lots of help but um you know, do a good job of setting out your stall, you know, drawing the map and the landscape of, well, this is what it's going to take to get there because it's not just for you to solve. For sure. So I think, you know, I would say. HR is a great place to work. I think it's going to be... more and more important as AI. you know, kind of levels the playing field on. intelligence and IQ. I think EQ and emotional intelligence, how to be the best kind of human and the people domain.

Us humans are going to have to get really good at being human because AI is going to do a lot for us. And I think HR is at the heart of that. You know, it won't be the CTO. switching on ai this is a change management uh piece of work if you like and HR needs to be in and at the forefront of, you know, redesigning the workplace. So it's a great place to be and to remain. But don't try and do it all alone. You're also not expected to. um there's lots of help and there's some you know there's some great professionals and great networks uh um Like your very own, Annalisa, to tap into. Thank you. Okay, that's great advice. I think that's the right place to end this conversation.

Is there any last thing you want to add before we wrap up? I think. Yeah, that was my last piece of advice, you know, hang in there. It's a really, you know, it's a great... place to be uh right now i think because i think we're at this crossroads this friction point and there's a lot to look forward to You know, some of the AI systems and the HR tech that's coming out. now is what I've been crying out for 20 years, 25 years. You know, it's not going to take our jobs. It's just going to... mean we can focus on the strategic stuff. and the stuff that's going to be more valuable and actually more fun. Lovely. And who wants to work on Excel all the time and sew together six different sheets?

And a page from your notebook. Okay, great. So if anyone wants to get in touch with you, Rachel, where do they find you? They can find me on LinkedIn with the Klingonen on Rachel Wilson Rugelsjøn, not Rakel. I also have a web page. So it's level-upglobal.com. Right, we'll link to it then. Yeah, so you can find me on my website as well. Lovely. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much for having me. I knew I would love every minute, and you didn't disappoint. So thank you. Really appreciate it. It's great to talk again. Same to you. Thank you.

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